Saturday, January 8, 2011

OPEN THREAD: Rep. Giffords Shot In Arizona

There is a lot going on in the world and this country.
 This is a sad day in America. For as long as I've been alive this has never happened. Please pray for all involved in this tragedy.This is supposed to be the shooters Jared Loughner’s You Tube Channel. Please take a look at it and tell us if you still think he's a Tea Partier.
We need to keep cooler heads when accusing before the facts come in. I'd think that the left-wing would have learned that by now. Since they have been found to be one of theirs almost every time. I'm not saying he's a lefty, but it would be a good idea to wait and find out more before we place any blame if any at all. I'm sure Homeland Security will take an honest look at what caused this man to do what he did. Either way I'm sure the left will find a way to blame us.

If you look at the fourth name on Sarahpac you will see what the left is so upset. I don't get it, but I see it. Many on the left think this is Sarah Palins fault and they are using this poster as proof. But we all know the truth about this poster and it's a stretch from the left to tag these murders to it. But like I said we will see in due time. Pray for these poor people involved. And pray for those that have so much anger in their heart that they may turn to violence in the future. Well it looks like the Democrats did the same thing, this was their “targets for Democratic gains in 2004″:
Here's the link to the MSNBC video of the special comment:  H/T to abs0628

Here's another fascinating video with Chuck Todd arrogantly dismissing the now prescient remarks which Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords made of having been placed in Sara Palin's gunsight crosshairs (at about 12:30 in the video interview):
Keith's interview with Gene Robinson:  Please take the time to tell us what you think. Your opinion does matter and that is why I have this blog. So we can see what people think.


  1. Here is an email I got. Should "the boss" blame politics and politicians for their businesses failures? The Democrats have made business and the capitalism that makes these businesses run the enemy and then wonder why we have been in the longest running recession? Has anyone seen how many companies have left this hostil environment for freindlier countries since Obama took office? Why are Democrats so hostil to businesses and job creators? What have the Democrats done to grow entrapanuership? Dear Employees:
    As the CEO of this organization, I have resigned myself to the fact that Barrack Obama is our President and that our insurance costs, taxes and government fees will increase in a BIG way. To compensate for these increases, our prices would have to increase by about 10%. But since we cannot increase our prices right now due to the dismal state of the economy, we will have to lay off sixty of our employees instead.

    This has really been bothering me since I believe we are family here and I didn't know how to choose who would have to go.

    So, this is what I did. I walked through our parking lots and found sixty 'Obama' bumper stickers on our employees' cars and have decided these folks will be the ones to let go. I can't think of a more fair way to approach this problem. They voted for change..... I gave it to them.

    I will see the rest of you at the annual company picnic.


  2. Two professors of constitutional law say the mandate that everyone purchase healthcare is not the only problem with ObamaCare.

    David G. Oedel, a professor at Mercer University School of Law, recently joined Professor Randy E. Barnett of Georgetown University to write The Wall Street Journal op-ed, "ObamaCare and the General Welfare Clause." In that piece, Oedel says the requirement that states extend their Medicaid coverage to more people exceeds Congress' spending power.

    He points out that the changes to Medicaid are being hoisted upon the states, and "if you disagree as a have to drop out of Medicaid and you lose all the funding that your citizens are sending to the federal government for Medicaid, and that would go to the citizens of other states."

    The Mercer University professor argues that that is not in the General Welfare principle as defined in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, which "says basically that the Congress has to spend for the general welfare and not for specialized interests."

    Based on the Supreme Court case of South Dakota v. Dole (1987), 20 states have so far challenged the Medicaid mandate as exceeding Congress' spending power. In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that the federal government had authority to force states to raise their minimum drinking age to 21 or lose five percent of federal highway funding. The court recognized it was only a small amount of money, but it also acknowledged that at some point, federal spending can go from persuasive to coercive. With respect to the General Welfare clause and healthcare reform, Oedel believes the U.S. has reached the latter.

    "Medicaid is the single biggest federal outlay to the states. This year, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of $289 billion among all the states. That's more than $5 billion per average state," he explains. "It's more than all transportation funding and education funding combined."

    As a result, he concludes the Medicaid extension is "an all-or-nothing proposition with respect to the healthcare reform act."

    "If you are a state that opts out, you lose all that funding, as opposed to just five percent of funding in Dole. It's just a radically different situation and a much more draconian result for the members of the states; it's really coercive," he laments.

    Fortunately, Oedel does not think the problem is insurmountable as Congress could provide block grants, which it often does in other settings. "If you don't want to go along with a federal program, they'll ship the money to you in some other fashion, and there's sort of a rough justice to it," the professor suggests. "They have not chosen to do rough justice with respect to healthcare reform, which is the federal government just flexing its muscle and making the states enact programs that the federal government wants."

    Oedel concludes that the cynical response to a government block grant would be to argue that Congress would never offer such a thing because lots of states might withdraw. In that event, he would agree with the cynic as it shows how the "coercion" principle of Dole is linked to the General Welfare clause.

  3. A Christian social worker is taking exception to a new California law that declares homosexuals are "born gay."

    Beginning this New Year, California will implement AB 2199 and ultimately strike down the requirement on the State Department of Mental Health to conduct research on the "causes and cures of homosexuality." According to Veronica Esqueda, a renal social worker in Los Angeles, the measure will portray alternate lifestyles as acceptable and normal.

    "I do think it's going to open up their comfort level, and I think it's going to make it more acceptable," she explains. "Obviously, I am one that believes that it's not an error -- you are born the way God intended you to be," she notes, adding that she believes homosexuality is a choice.

    AB 2199, sponsored by Equality California, gained the support of homosexual activists who claim it is discriminatory to search for cures for their sexual orientation. Advocates argue that those in the LGBT (lesbian, "gay," bisexual transgender) community were born to favor alternate lifestyles, so they contend the section of the Welfare and Institutions code is archaic and portrays them as sexual deviants. Esqueda, however, thinks the new law will suppress the Christian voice.

    "I believe it is going to impact the conservatives, the Christians, and I think it's going to basically have a discrimination [effect] against the conservative Christian believer," she laments. "It's going to be just another way to silence [their message]."

    The California State Senate passed the measure in a 36-0 vote, so now the section of the Welfare and Institutions code that requires research into the cause of homosexuality will be removed. Don't they want to know what causes homosexuality? What do they have against applied science? Are they affraid to find out the cause, now that their 'born gay' theory is out the window?

  4. Congreswses first business should be Economy and Jobs. Do whats needed to get Private Sector moving at least whats left of it. Manufacturing JOBS use to be OUR back bone but through really bad trade agreements we have allowed that to DIE on the vine. OUR politicans MUST address Trade agreements that have almost killed manufacturing jobs by sending them off shore. The world community which we seem to be hell bent on joining at any cost could give a CRAP about OUR economy and WE must now take the bull by the HORN and do whats NEEDED here to bring Manufacturing back and the HELL with world community. Anybody beleive CHINA gives a CRAP bout world community. Politicans put Nation/Citizens first there is just NO other way that will work!

    Congresses should then attempt to repeal Socialized Insurance but will probablly fail, at least there will be open debate which is more than photo op Citizens received last year.

    A couple of good places to start would be to have OPEN debate in the House on WHY Our Elected Representitives can Opt out of Socialized Insurance and to fix that LOOP hole.

    We should then have on floor of House debate on WHY special interest groups can apply for wavers from Government Insurance.

    We should also on floor of the House have debate on FUNDING and start with debating HOW you can take 500 billion from a Program estimated to be several TRILLION in DEBT. Have Politicans explain HOW you take from a program(Medicare) that is flat broke and borrow TRILLIONS from it.

  5. I love that fake email chain letter...Its cool.

    but can we look at your post...

    Chris said...
    The Democrats have made business and the capitalism that makes these businesses run the enemy and then wonder why we have been in the longest running recession?

    Is that a question? Seems like a statement to me. In fact you never even pretend to ask a question.

    Has anyone seen how many companies have left this hostil environment for freindlier countries since Obama took office?

    No how many? Care to share any empirical evidence?

    Why are Democrats so hostil to businesses and job creators?

    Here's one of those tricky Question-statements. There's no answer. Only agreement or disagreement with your description of Dems.

    What have the Democrats done to grow entrapanuership?

    Now you finally ask a question.... I'm not sure. I bet if i check Google i could find something, but i know what they've done to help the working man.

  6. Isn't it entrapanuers and business that create jobs Joe? And if you can't find lots of ways that the Democrats have helped entrapanuers then the Democrats aren't for businees or creating jobs. Finding only a few isn't good enough. That is why the people put the Republicans back in charge. And unless the Republicans screw it up, and they very well could, they'll take the presidency as well. The hate of business and capitalism permiates the Democrat Party. And since most people work for a business your talking about holding back the hand that feeds them. Unlike union members we can and have been loosing our jobs. While the unions in both the public and private sector have been saved by us and have grown in both incomes and numbers of members. Who is the "working man' Joe? Union members? Why can't you liberals say what you mean and mean what you say? We are getting sick of you liberals changing word that are PC for you. Kind of like how you libs call illegal immorgants just immogrant. You say that Republicans are against immogrants when you know darn well that most Americans,like Republicans are against illegal immorants. And neither party is against legal immogrants. If Republicans truly were against immograns that would be against the Constitution.

  7. Now it's happened. Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was shot, perhaps to death, at point blank range in the head. Up to 11 others dead.

  8. This is a truely sad day in America. She is a great Congresswomen. NPR has it wrong and so does Bruce. Rep Giffords was shot and is alive. There are 18 others shot,not dead. It is said that there are five dead at this time but most likely there will be more. One of the dead is a Federal judge put in by Bush. You need to watch the Bill Hemmer interview of her yesterday. He told he she sounded like a Republican rather then the "conservative Democrat" she is. This is a real tragity. It is a shame the way some of the Democrats being interviewed are already trying to put blame for this on the Tea Party. It seems to be the way they do things.

  9. Chris, I said perhaps to death. The update is that she is alive, and expected to recover.

    One child, approximately nine years old has died and a federal judge.

    Bet me the shooter was a Glenn Beck and Fox fan.

  10. PhilPerspective January 8th, 2011 at 10:25 am «
    WTF?!?!? Is the former Governor of AZ now going to realize what a threat the right-wing is to this country? Instead of trying to cover it up?

    Log in to Reply dakine01 January 8th, 2011 at 10:26 am «
    Cue the wing nut noise machine on how this is the action of a lone, psychotic individual.

    It IS the action of a psychotic individual but generously helped along by the demonization efforts of some of the more outrageous talking heads and pundits

    I got these from one news site. It seems as though the left-wing have come to a conclution before the FBI. It is a sad day in America when this is what the left do before there is any proof. If it is a conservative then shame on the conservative. But more often then not the accusations from the left turn out to be dead wrong. Take some time and read what the left wing blogs and web sites are saying about this tragity. It will make you sick. But it will give you an idea of who they are. Read how happy they sound "Now it's happened". It's as if they have been waiting with baited breath for something like this. Can we at least find out what happened before you start blaming the conservatives?

  11. This is from Remember what happened during the health care debacle?

    The damaged front door to Rep. Gabrielle Gifford’s office in Tucson, Ariz., is shown Monday a few hours after the House vote overhauling the nation’s health care system.

    Rep. Louise Slaughter, D-N.Y., had a brick thrown through her Niagara Falls district office and received a threatening voicemail referencing sniper attacks. The front door to the Tucson district office of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., was shattered. And Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., whose last-minute negotiations to bar federal funding of abortion helped secure the bill’s passage, received a fax with a drawing of a noose and an anonymous voicemail saying, “You’re dead. We know where you live. We’ll get you.”

  12. U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Arizona Public Media reported Saturday. Now, the question to raise is posed in the headline.

    U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords
    Are ‘Second Amendment Solutions’ to blame for Rep. Giffords shooting? The Fox News entertainers sure do push this rhetoric. Are people listening? Yes. Look at their ratings.

    Look at what defeated teabagger Sharron Angle blabbered about:

    Sharron Angle, the Tea Party candidate turned Republican primary winner in Nevada, has taken heat for a number of extreme affiliations and policy positions. One of the more outlandish was a statement she made during a radio interview last January in which she floated the idea that the public would bring down an out-of-control Congress with “Second Amendment remedies.”

    The talk is out there. Looks like the action is surfacing. Will people who push this stop it and call for immediate recoil? We’ll see.

    UPDATE: Sarah Palin put Rep. Giffords on her 2010 “Target List,” and this graphic from SarahPAC shows Gifford’s district in crosshairs. Any mystery where this kind of insanity comes from??
    This one is from What do you on the left think about what your fellow liberals are saying?

  13. He has to be a teabagger or Republican. It's time homeland sec starts shuting down these bagger protests and fox noise. This is the violence we have been talking about.

  14. Teabagger shoots Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., 12 Others; Some ...
    Jan 8, 2011 ... Teabagger shoots Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., 12 Others; Some Dead ... Giffords was shot in the head and that she is in surgery now. ... - Cached - Similar pages (5873303) U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) shot in ...
    Jan 8, 2011 ... U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) shot in the head in Tucson .... I have to this the actions of a radical tea bagger? or one ... - Cached - Similar pages
    YouTube - Illegals & Drug Cartels DECLARE WAR on the USA - Rep ...
    Jan 8, 2011 ... Rep. Gabrielle Giffords shot and 11 others after a gunman opene. ... Another gay  Teabagger posts retarded BS, get the peni$ out of yer rear ... - Cached - Similar pages
    Rep. Gabrielle Giffords recovering after surgery - Jake Sherman ...
    Jan 8, 2011 ... Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) was shot in the head and ... TeaBaggers have begun their reign of terror. Go to the shooter's house and ... - Cached - Similar pages
    POLITICO Forums:Congress: Rep. Giffords shot, critically injured ...
    Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) was shot in the head and gravely ... - Cached - Similar pages
    More teabagger extremism.... - Operation Iraqi Freedom - AOL ...
    Jan 8, 2011 ... More teabagger extremism.... Community Standards | My Boards ... U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a grocery store in ... - Cached - Similar pages
    44 - Reports: Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords shot at public event
    Jan 8, 2011 ... Arizona Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot on Saturday morning while hosting an ... Even her father knows teabaggers are to blame. ... - Cached - Similar pages
    Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords Shot In Arizona -
    U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot outside a .... it I have to wonder if some lunatic Teabagger or other so far right they are ... - Cached - Similar pages
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    Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona Reportedly Shot During Public Event ... The right is hoping an illegal did it and the left is hoping a tea bagger did it. ... - Cached - Similar pages
    Is this what the teabaggers meant by "second amendment remedies ...
    Jan 8, 2011 ... What the constituent that shot at the shooter of Rep. Gabrielle Gifford's? Yes, more people could of died if that constituent would have not ... - Cached - Similar pages
    This is from Google. What do you think about that chris?

  15. You are right about the liberals talking shit on the web. They are becoming unhinged. I found these---
    Originally Posted by snapdragonfly
    I have to wonder if some lunatic Teabagger or other so far right they are in outer space nutter didn't figure the end justified the means.

    God forgive me, but the very first thing to come to mind when I read the news was "I hope the gunman was a Tea Partier-- let the world see who they really are."

  16. Bruce, its really fucking stupid of you to try to put blame on the tea Baggers. Its one stupid idiot responding to the violent rhetoric of both sides.

    Instead of coming together and trying to get past this stupid shit are we going to just circle our partisan wagons and attack each other some more?

    That's not the person i was raised to be. I was raised to wonder and care about the families affected first and let the rest fall into place later. There's enough time to place blame then.

    So both you and the Adams, Mark Pat can take a long walk off a short pier.

  17. Joe Well said and on this Issue I totally agree!

  18. You're the stupid fucker joec. That teabagger killed a 9 year old boy. joec are you trying to say that this wasn't caused by glen beck,fox news and palin? Did you know that palin put Rep Giffords name on her target hit list? Did you know that joec? Palin wanted her dead and one of her teabaggers did it. You better pick a side joec.

  19. Via FOX News:
    Rep. Linda Lopez (Dem) blamed the tea party for the shooting today that injured Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ). Lopez says her opponent was a tea partier.

    The good news–
    Rep. Giffords is reportedly responding to doctor’s commands.

    Lopez also said the shooter was an Afghanistan War veteran.

    Speaker Boehner says he was horrified with the attack on Rep. Giffords.

    Even Fox News had Rep Lopez say a teabagger did it.

  20. Paul Joseph Watson
    Saturday, January 8, 2011

    UPDATE: This is allegedly Jared Loughner’s You Tube Channel. He lists his favorite books as Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto. There is no evidence of any Tea Party/Ron Paul/patriot movement affiliation, much to the disappointment of the Huffington Post, but Fox News and others are hastily building his profile as a nutcase conspiracy theorist.

    UPDATE: A second man has been arrested in connection with the shooting, while a third man is also being sought.

    UPDATE: Reports suggest that the gunman is a 22-year-old white male named Jared Loughner, an Arizona native.

    UPDATE: Amidst a widespread assault on gun rights, we learn that the gunman was stopped after he was shot at by someone in the crowd exercising their second amendment.

    UPDATE: Giffords’ father has told the New York Post that “the entire Tea Party” were enemies of his daughter, suggesting that a Tea Partier was behind the shooting. However, Giffords is a blue dog Democrat who is pro-border control and pro-second amendment - an unusual target for a “tea partier”.

    Political hacks have wasted little time in exploiting the tragic shooting of Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords to demonize their political opposition despite the gunman’s motivation being completely unknown at this time.

    Huffington Post has already blamed the shooting on second amendment activists who held a meeting last year to discuss ways of politically defeating Giffords. They are also hyping speculation that a semi-automatic weapon was used.

    Before it was even clear whether or not Giffords had survived, neo-lib statists were already shamelessly milking the shocking events for political gain. Our forum members also report that CNN’s David Fitsimmons is using the shooting to demonize “fringe” politics.

    More updates to this story as it develops……

    Giffords was a strong border control advocate and the gunman could have been someone with a grudge against her immigration policies. Hwoever, she also supported Obamacare and visited the Copenhagen global warming summit, so the murders could also be blamed on a “right-wing radical” and used to demonize the patriot movement.

    The gunman was tackled by onlookers and arrested by police. He is described as a young man in his teens or early 20′s.

    “The man was young, mid-to-late 20s, white clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing and said nothing during the shooting or while being held down. He didn’t look like a businessman, but more of a “fringe character,” reports Gawker.

    Giffords is still alive and is now responding to commands, while other victims are in critical condition. Federal Judge John Roll has been confirmed dead.

    Statement from Alex Jones: Whatever the motivation for this shooting, our hearts go out to the the Congresswoman’s family and supporters. It is important to note that, the anti-2nd Amendment, victim disarmament crowd will undoubtedly try to use this event to demonize gun owners and further restrictive legislation. Mexico has a total gun ban, and the worst record for killed and kidnapped politicians and other high-level figures in the world. With more than 28,000 dead in Mexico from the drug war, it is clear that leaving guns only in the hands of the cartels and criminals will only make us all vulnerable.

    Eyewitness report from man who helped to apprehend shooter, “After shooting Giffords, the gunman opened fire indiscriminately for a few seconds, firing 20-30 rounds and hitting a number of people, including a kid no older than 10 years old. Rayle hid behind a concrete pole and pretended to be dead. When the gunman apparently ran out of ammunition he attempted to flee, but a member of Giffords’ staff tackled him. Rayle helped hold the gunman down while waiting for the sheriff to arrive, about 15-to-20 minutes later. The EMS came about 30 minutes later. Rayle said he was “stunned” by how long it took medical help to arrive.”

  21. I just added some things to this post. It might help put some light on the limited truth we have so far. I'm sure by morning there will be a lot more on this murder. I appreciate the one liberal(JoeC) with a cool head on this tragic event in our history. You might be the only liberal that doesn't look the fool in the end. Joe, do you see what the left-wing are really like? And it's not just on this blog either. It's most of them. And look at the Huffington Post. It's a little scary what's in those peoples hearts. Thanks for the updates Paul. And thanks to all the liberal commenters for showing us what you are really like. It woke me up.

  22. Chris, its not just liberals, its conservatives too. Everyone is looking to place blame or avoid blame. I'm sick of it all.

    Read American Pats blog. They have some links to a girl's twitter account about how he's a liberal. Same bullshit Bruce did.

    The media has to try to report his leanings. I hate that but the stupid people want to know. And if you don't report it the stupid people won't watch your news channel.

    I want to know about the families affected and the people hurt. There is all the time in the world to cast blame but only hours to come together as a country in any meaningful way.

    Its not our job too. Our job is to come together and stop ALL the RHETORIC NOW.

  23. See Chris,

    Even Pauls post from prisonplanet is bullshit.
    They even take the time to use the tragedy as a chance to mock and prove their political opponents wrong.

    Fuck them too.

    The only news i heard that I was able to stomach about this horrific event was "All things considered." They kept repeating...

    "Its way to early to know what went the motive for....."

  24. Green,

    Was Sarah Palins map the correct thing to do? No it wasn't. It was ugly violent partisanship. And if she has any soul, she will feel bad about that for a long time.

    Not because she is guilty of inciting anything, because she isn't. She didn't make that man shoot those people. Neither did the congresswoman's recent opponent who's ads were much more tasteless and violent.

    They didn't make anyone kill anyone. Its not their fault. But i won't let them or the Dems off the hook for amping up the debate to the point where we have dehumanized our politicians.

    Its all our fault. Mine for the partisan rhetoric I've put out, Chris for doing the same. Glenn and Keith for their far ranging conspiracy BS. Rush for years of dehumanizing his political targets. Hannity for being a dumbass motherfucker. That big fat guy ED schultz for all his shit.

    You want to blame someone, blame all of us or yourself.

  25. See Andrew Sullivan, a conservative said something so brilliant applying it to his fellow conservatives, but i think it has meaning for all of us.

    "There are those who always see Hobbes and those who see Hobbes but are grateful for Locke. There are those who see human conduct at its height as being engaged in virtuous battle for a righteous republic. And there are those who like snow-boarding."

    We have become so locked into politics that everything is judged against the backdrop of where it fits into our political beliefs. We see everything as a battle for political supremacy.

    How fucking sad.

  26. Wonder of all wonders,,I agree with JoeC!

    Sir, the last few comments of yours on this matter are spot-on!

    Your last paragraph @ 21:55 I might change the wording a little at least when it comes to us, the actual Americans who have to live under whatever shit the politicians decide from post office names to war.

    I would say: "We see everything as a battle for political ideology" and that is cause for celebration as this nation has always depended on such differences and conversation.

    The violence, and none, repeat NONE of us can say what motivated this lunatic has NO PLACE in civilized society.

  27. JoeC, I think you have a reading comprehension problem.

    I'm certainly not saying Loughner was a teabagger. I did not use that language in my post.

    What I am saying that he is a disturbed individual that is susceptible to the type of hateful rhetoric that is spewed every day by people like those that frequent this blog and the likes of Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin and other hate merchants that have access to radio and TV audiences at Fox and other media outlets on the right.

    The SarahPAC map is just one example of the type of thing that can permeate the minds of people like this. Language like "targeting" of our elected representative cannot be tolerated. Conservatives need to own up to their responsibilities to change the rhetoric around our political debate.

    Since he survived, I suspect we will learn more about his psychological makeup and motives as the days go by.

    We have to all call for an end to the hate speech that rolls of the tongue of people like Glenn Beck every day on his radio program and his television program, or our democracy will suffer more black eyes, such as the one that occurred yesterday.

  28. JoeC, if you need more evidence of the kinds of rhetoric and advertising that people in the 8th District of Arizona were subjected to in the last election cycle, I think this post has a pretty good gathering of that information.

  29. Bruce Your a Idiot Name one time ONE that anybody regularly on this blog have threatened to use VIOLENCE as a tool to advance anything. I am not a person to get upset often but a statement of that type really really PISSES me off. It doesn't make me Violent just PISSES me off when Blow hard "BLOWs"

    Here WE have 6 Citizens slaughtered and a United States Representitive fighting for her LIFE and the SMALL person YOU are cannot wait to take YOUR rhetoric and without hesitation slither into your SHIT! You have NO shame but SHAME on ya!

  30. The truth hurt, Al. That's the only reason you're pissed off. You can't take the truth about you and your kind.

    Six citizens were murdered in cold blood because of the hateful rhetoric uttered by the likes of Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, Sharron Angle, Rush Limbaugh and others.

    You should be denouncing those people, not me.

  31. Joe I watch
    MSNBC and CNN yesterday. MSNBC had Keith Olbermann on and he blamed all of this on the rhetoric of the Tea Parties,Glenn,Palin...MSNBC brought Keith in just for that. I couldn't believe the thing Kieth and his guest were saying and implying. Like I have been saying all along we need to know why this murder did it. If he is a conservative then we need to place blame on that, like the left have already done. If he is from the left then the same. We need to find out where this is coming from and start taking a closer look. If this guy turns out to be a conservative you know what will come next. If he's a liberal thern the same thing will happen as with the TX airplan guy that tried to kill the people in that building. CNN is all over the second amendment. You can see where they are going to go next with this. But bombs are illegal and we have seen them used more often then guns. Bruce do yoiu think Sarah Palin is the first person to use a target in a campain? The Democrats have used them as much as Republicans. If you on the left want to tie this arround the conservatives neck don't bitch when it turns out to not be a conservative. I can't believe that with all the rhetoric the left did with Bush and the Republican Party without one conservative or Tea Partier insadence. The left have been trying to pin us with violence since the begining. When it comes to placing blame before there is any proof the left have it hands down. The left use this kind of tactic like the reverse of the halo effect. And when it turns out to be wrong or one of theirs they want to bruxsh it under the carpet like ideology had no effect. And when it comes to guns, if more people had them at this event maybe they could have helped. But we can debate our right to protect our Life,Liberty and Persuet of Happiness. Stop taking every crisis and using it to take away the rights of We The People. When I went to bed the news said they were looking for a man of interest for dropping this murder off. Did they find him?

  32. I just add Keith Olbermann's videos. Take a look and tell us what you think. And then try and find something like it coming from Fox or CNN. Tell us who is using this as rhetoric and insightment.

  33. Maybe it wasn't the Palin target but the Democratic target that made this man kill. Bruce will you now hold yourself and the Democratic Party to the same punishment as you tried to place on the Republicans? I wonder why Keith never mentioned the fact that the bullseye has been used in politics for a very long time. There are are a lot of these used by Democrats. But Palins in the only target I've seen by a Republican. It's funny how there is such a double standard. Don't you feel like a real idiot now Bruce?

  34. Democrats/liberals are on the offensive, while the Republicans/conservatives have been on the defensive on this. Can you blame conservatives for defending themselves when liberals came out of the shoot calling that killer a 'teabagger'? The liberal rhetoric will change to 'he's crazy' from 'he's a teabagger' when they find out that the killer is not conservative.

  35. The shooting of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and the killing of several people by gunman Jared Loughner in Arizona yesterday has revealed two sicknesses.

    The first and most serious is the sickness living in Loughner's head. Evidence in the form of farewell videos, internet postings, and the recollections of people who knew him reveal a profoundly disturbed person who had veered far into a paranoid world. Loughner's complaints about government mind control and other rants were not "anti-government" in any political sense, but anti-government or anarchist in the Ted Kazynski-deranged sense. We do not know Loughner's motives, but those motives whatever they were were the byproduct of Loughner's clearly delusional view of the world.

    There also was a second sickness on display, and it was the swiftness and the vigor with which the left-wing blogosphere and some more mainstream Democrats immediately sought to blame Sarah Palin and right-wing "vitriol" in general for the shooting.

    Within minutes of the shooting being made known, two of the highest profile left-wing bloggers, Markos Moulitsas of DailyKos and Matthew Yglesias of Think Progress, pulled out a 10-month-old electoral map used at a Sarah Palin website showing almost two dozen congressional districts being targeted, including Giffords' district. The map was similar to one used by the Democratic Leadership Committee to target Republicans in the prior election cycle, and as Howard Kurtz points out, simply typical of campaign rhetoric using military-themed language.

    Markos explicitly accused Palin of having blood on her hands and Yglesias did so implicitly. Through retweets of this message and the map, the left-blogosphere (with some exceptions who took a wait-and-see attitude) took up the cudgel of turning this shooting to their political advantage. Think Progress ran updates with details on the Palin map and also an advertisement several months ago by Giffords' congressional campaign opponent also using military terminology. But clearly, Palin has been the focus, with a larger attack on "right wing vitriol."

    Not surprisingly, Keith Olbermann -- one of the most hateful television personalities who names a nightly "Worst Person In The World" -- joined the chorus. Even The New York Times joined the fray, reporting on the Palin map in its initial coverage, and running a Paul Krugman blog post blaming right-wing rhetoric.

    Numerous sources also are reporting that Judge John M. Roll, who was killed, had been the subject of threats because of an immigration ruling, but by all accounts Roll was not targeted and was at the event in a shopping area purely by coincidence.

    Yet not a single person pushing the blame-Palin line has offered a shred of evidence that Loughner ever saw Palin's electoral map, was motivated by it, was right-wing (anectodally it appears Loughner was quite left-wing as of a few years ago), was motivated by right-wing radio, or did any of the things being assumed by the left-blogosphere, the mainstream media and some Democratic politicians.

    Not a shred of evidence connecting Loughner to Palin, the Tea Parties, or the right wing, yet the left-blogosphere, mainstream media and Democratic politicians have erupted into a frenzy of name-calling directed at Palin and those who oppose Obama's agenda.

    Who knows what evidence will come forward in coming days, but based on what we know now, the attempt to blame Palin and opponents of Obama for the shooting is every bit as delusional as Loughner's attempt to blame government mind control.

  36. Unfortunately, this is not the first time we have seen this type of reaction. The meme that opponents of Obama are crazy and dangerous has been an explicit Democratic Party campaign strategy for over two years. Here is just a partial list of events in which the left-wing and Democratic Party media operation has immediately blamed right-wing rhetoric, only to be proven wrong when the facts finally came out: Bill Sparkman, Amy Bishop, The Fort Hood Shooter, The IRS Plane Crasher, The Cabbie Stabbing, and The Pentagon Shooter.

    The facts will come out about the shooting and murder by Loughner. Until then, we'll be subjected to the sickness of people who seek to use the crime to their political advantage and who will worry about the facts later on, if ever.

    In the meantime, our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the deceased and those injured.

    Congresswoman Giffords took part in the reading of the Constitution on the floor of the House last week, an event which was denounced by the left-blogosphere and some Democrats as a stunt and a reflection of a fetish:

    Interestingly, Think Progress posted a video on its YouTube channel back in November, of Democratic pollster (and former Hillary Clinton campaign manager) Mark Penn arguing that Obama needed "another Oklahoma City" in order to reconnect with the people:

    The manner in which the left-wing is seeking to exploit this crime reflects an attempt to replicate the political success Bill Clinton had after the Oklahoma City bombing.

  37. Chris, i do hear what your saying, but i am the left and i am not blaming you or the tea party. I am saying that we all need to back off.

    Olbermans a fool. And with whats begin said and done by some of the left i agree with you, its callous and uncalled for. There is no place in this world for blame right now.

    First we must tend to those that lost loved ones, then we must protect others who may suffer from copycats. Because i can guarantee you there is some sick twisted person who is thinking that this was cool and he needs to try it too. It could even be a liberal trying to get revenge.

    That is why we need to not assign blame, not worry about who said what? We will only further fan the flames.

  38. For some of you lefties (which excludes Joe, as he gets it, in this incident) who want to put the indirect responsibility on the TPP or the right...

    Direct quotes:

    Clean the House- a right of center PAC
    Our thoughts are with the family of Rep. Giffords huddled around her bedside tonight. I pray for her recovery, and the recovery of the dozen other victims. My deepest condolences to the families of John Roll (63), Dorthy Murray (76), Dorwin Stoddard (76), Christina Greene (9), Phyllis Scheck (79) and Gabriel Zimmerman (30). May they rest in peace.

    Governor Jan Brewer
    I am deeply saddened and heartbroken over the tragic events in Tucson. I ask that all citizens of Arizona and America join me in thoughtful prayer and sincere reflection for the families of the following victims: Judge John Roll, Gabe Zimmerman, Dorwin Stoddard, Dorthy Murray, Phyllis Scheck and 9-year-old Christina Green. Pray for the health of Rep. Giffords and for the other individuals who were also injured.

    The FreedomWorks community joins the nation in mourning the terrible tragedy in Arizona. Violent acts such as this impact all of us, and our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

    American Majority
    Our thoughts and prayers are with the family, friends and constituents of Congresswoman Giffords, Judge Roll, the victims, and everyone affected by this tragedy in Arizona. We echo the previous statements made by our elected officials, that this senseless act of violence has no place in our country and cannot be tolerated.

    Tea Party Patriots
    This heinous act will change the interaction between elected officials and their constituents. Please continue to pray for the shooting victims and their families. Please also pray for the safety of Congressmen, Senators, President Obama and other elected officials in the aftermath of this shooting.

    Right of Center-Blog
    Horrific event in Arizona... prayers to the victims. The shooter should be put to death.

    Paul Ryan Statement on Tragedy in Tucson, Arizona
    Wisconsin's First District Congressman Paul Ryan issued the following statement regarding the shooting of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona:

    “I am deeply saddened by today's tragic shooting of my colleague Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, members of her staff and residents in Tucson, Arizona. My thoughts and prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords and her family, along with those impacted by this senseless act of violence."

    From the Arizona Tea Party

  39. It was caused by becks violent rhetoric,faux news and the tea party! If you righties would back the fuck off, maybe this kind of shit wouldn't happen! Can't you see what the Republican Party is doing to this country? If it isn't the Republicans and tea parties fault, then why are they saying sorry?

  40. Anon, why are the Dems saying their sorry? Maybe because their over reaching on our personal liberties caused this whole thing??..........

    No, both sides are condemning what took place.
    But it's folks like you who continue to push the buttons against the American way of life that has brought on heated rhetoric.
    So with that said, 'back the fuck off'!

  41. I am not going to back off the assertion that there is a correlation between rhetoric encouraging people to "assert their second ammendment rights,"water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots," "Don't Tread on Me," "Don't retreat, reload," and Glen Beck's paranoid ramblings about a new world order and President Obama brainwashing children.

    Was this guy crazy? It appears so. But that doesn't preclude the probability that his psychosis was either seeded or re-enforced by the self serving, politically and financially motivated ramblings of right wing politicians and pop stars who tiptoed along a line between free speech and encouraging violent revolution.

    Rep. Giffords windows were shot out and she received hundreds of threatening phone calls after she voted for health care reform.

    When her 75 year old father was asked if she had any enemies, he responded, "Yeah, the whole tea party."

    I agree it is a horrible tragedy but time and time again, it is a tragedy that consistently ends up with Democrats and liberals as victims and right wingers piously praying for the same people they demonized and dehumanized.

  42. That crazy ass Rachel Maddow just posted this on her blog. Talk about
    liberals whp can't accept facts. So, first the libs want to blame Palin,
    and now Maddow wants to blame Sharon Angle.

    First MSNBC reported that Giffords was dead at the hands of a Tea Party activist shooter. Then they said it's Palin's fault for posting cross-hairs in a map. Now Maddow is saying its Sharon Angle's fault.

    Boy, those clowns at pMSNBC just can't get their shit together.

    "As several commenters have noted, there's no indication that the
    alleged shooter was politically motivated. Even if the perpetrator turns
    out to have been seriously involved in political causes, which again
    there's no evidence of, his actions will likely remain senseless. What
    we can say is that today's shooting, whatever its motivation, comes
    after an election season that was marked by the language of violence,
    like Sharron Angle's call for Second Amendment remedies. And so today's
    literal violence in a political context will inevitably raise questions
    about the effect of violent rhetoric."

  43. We still don't know what drove this man to murder. Period. Stop trying to say it over and over again, hoping it will come true. I can't believe some of the things that have been written on this post. It's a sad day in America in two ways just like William A. Jacobson said best. Please keep it peaceful and we don't want a copycat of this. There are a lot of crazy people out there these days that might try the same thing. Right now is a good time to pray to God and look inside yourself. And if you are a Christian do you love your enemy in your heart and mind. I do thank you all for your opinions on this sad day in America. Can we try and be creative about going forward from here? I'd like to know where we should go from here.

  44. The MSM really gives Palin way too much power over people's lives and actions.

    It's interesting that no one has said anything about the Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill (D) who went on national TV last year and encouraged people to take up pitchforks.

    Her statement actually encouraged violence!

    Even though I rarely agree with JoeC, everyone should follow JoeC's lead and let the information come out, and not jump to conclusions.

    If ever there was a moment to come together within all this political strife, that moment is now.

  45. bfealk is part of the blood libel goon squad. What a worthless excuse for a human being. Have you no shame?

    The Arizona Tragedy and the Politics of Blood Libel
    Those who purport to care about the tenor of political discourse don't help civil debate when they seize on any pretext to call their political opponents accomplices to murder.

    Shortly after November's electoral defeat for the Democrats, pollster Mark Penn appeared on Chris Matthews's TV show and remarked that what President Obama needed to reconnect with the American people was another Oklahoma City bombing. To judge from the reaction to Saturday's tragic shootings in Arizona, many on the left (and in the press) agree, and for a while hoped that Jared Lee Loughner's killing spree might fill the bill.

    With only the barest outline of events available, pundits and reporters seemed to agree that the massacre had to be the fault of the tea party movement in general, and of Sarah Palin in particular. Why? Because they had created, in New York Times columnist Paul Krugman's words, a "climate of hate."

    The critics were a bit short on particulars as to what that meant. Mrs. Palin has used some martial metaphors—"lock and load"—and talked about "targeting" opponents. But as media writer Howard Kurtz noted in The Daily Beast, such metaphors are common in politics. Palin critic Markos Moulitsas, on his Daily Kos blog, had even included Rep. Gabrielle Giffords's district on a list of congressional districts "bullseyed" for primary challenges. When Democrats use language like this—or even harsher language like Mr. Obama's famous remark, in Philadelphia during the 2008 campaign, "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun"—it's just evidence of high spirits, apparently. But if Republicans do it, it somehow creates a climate of hate.

    There's a climate of hate out there, all right, but it doesn't derive from the innocuous use of political clichés. And former Gov. Palin and the tea party movement are more the targets than the source.

  46. the above article second half:

    American journalists know how to be exquisitely sensitive when they want to be. As the Washington Examiner's Byron York pointed out on Sunday, after Major Nidal Hasan shot up Fort Hood while shouting "Allahu Akhbar!" the press was full of cautions about not drawing premature conclusions about a connection to Islamist terrorism. "Where," asked Mr. York, "was that caution after the shootings in Arizona?"

    Set aside as inconvenient, apparently. There was no waiting for the facts on Saturday. Likewise, last May New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and CBS anchor Katie Couric speculated, without any evidence, that the Times Square bomber might be a tea partier upset with the ObamaCare bill.

    So as the usual talking heads begin their "have you no decency?" routine aimed at talk radio and Republican politicians, perhaps we should turn the question around. Where is the decency in blood libel?

    To paraphrase Justice Cardozo ("proof of negligence in the air, so to speak, will not do"), there is no such thing as responsibility in the air. Those who try to connect Sarah Palin and other political figures with whom they disagree to the shootings in Arizona use attacks on "rhetoric" and a "climate of hate" to obscure their own dishonesty in trying to imply responsibility where none exists. But the dishonesty remains.

    To be clear, if you're using this event to criticize the "rhetoric" of Mrs. Palin or others with whom you disagree, then you're either: (a) asserting a connection between the "rhetoric" and the shooting, which based on evidence to date would be what we call a vicious lie; or (b) you're not, in which case you're just seizing on a tragedy to try to score unrelated political points, which is contemptible. Which is it?

    I understand the desperation that Democrats must feel after taking a historic beating in the midterm elections and seeing the popularity of ObamaCare plummet while voters flee the party in droves. But those who purport to care about the health of our political community demonstrate precious little actual concern for America's political well-being when they seize on any pretext, however flimsy, to call their political opponents accomplices to murder.

    Where is the decency in that?

  47. After reading the statements of some on this blog today im just amazed at the hate that can be released by such a dispicible act by a person who has yet to be charged with anything yet some here have BLAMED other Citizens for this persons horrible act.

    Each Citizen is or should be accountable for their actions but here we have SOME pointing at everybody but the suspect who is ALONE responsibile for this horrible act.

    Remember the Dead and Injured along with their FAMILIES but how low must you be to use this terrible tragedy for political GAIN! To me its just disgusting!

  48. To Chris and others10 January, 2011 07:27

    Have you seen the liberal protesters protesting what,"the rightwing has done to this country"? The leftwing need to be feared.

  49. wow, we are just falling all over ourselves to further our dislike of each other aren't we. The rhetoric may turn from violence, but it seems it won't lose the hate.

    You know i wish the best too all the posters and that we find some ground to stand together on.

    There has to be a way to release the hold of extreme partisanship and give on somethings. We still have issues to address and its gone on too long that we take the extreme because some bend only seems to strengthen the other side.

  50. Joe have you not been hearing what the left and Democrats are saying? It has been one sided. I don't give a crape about protests and free speech. We have the right to do that. But to play down what is being done is just dishonest and you all know it. This is nothing less then the left/Dems trying to win political points by blaming the Republicans/cons. I'm overwelmed by the what I've been reading and watching. Do you think the Americans in the middle don't see what the Democrats and the left have been doing since the Tea Party begain? Do you think that they believe the left when they called us racist,violent,dangerous..? This is the rhetoric that needs to go. But it needs to go on an INDIVIDUAL basis not collectively. The collective mind will never be change in the short turn unless the individual is changed. Maybe the moderates need to take another look at both the Tea Party protests and the antiBush/war...protest looked like. That will open their minds to a stark difference from the left and the right. You can find many of those pictures on Google and this blog.

  51. Chris I beleive Tea Party will stand on its own merit. This horrible act will play itself out and the Citizens will judge for themselves. No amount of SPIN will change the facts ONCE there known. Citizens aint stupid and that is the Tea Parties strength. I am not normally a waiter but lets see what the TRUTH is period!

  52. The truth is this guy is just nuts. The other truth is the reaction from some in the Democratic Party and the left-wing. We must wait to see what the court bring up about motive. But we must not wait to react to the motive of the left. But that seems to be working itself out as people start listening to the truth. I can't believe that MSNBC and the left-wing blogspher is still pushing the lie that it's because of the right-wing. Even that Democrat sheriff in AZ is still pushing this belief. I say belief because he has no facts to back up his belief.

  53. Chris The truth is COMING out and I beleive MSM now has a problem. The murderer has NO ties to any(Conservative) group politically that can be found. MSM came out from the get go to BURY the RIGHT but forgot you cannot BURY the Truth just can'T!

    MSM came after Tea Party,Palin and Conservative Radio/TV with out the facts. You would think highly trained Journalist would know better. Journalist would but MSM has become just Hacks for the LEFT which explains their terrible ratings. If Citizens dont Trust you they are not going to Listen to You.
    All Citizens want out of News organization are FACTs and THEY can make decision themselves..
    From the get go in this Terrible Event I have said the TRUTH will prevail and at this point I beleive it has and will continue too!

    The Vitims and the Injured should have been the main focus of this Terrible Event from the get go BUT MSM just could not hold off and get the FACTS and as usual did NOT!

  54. Maybe you need to watch CNN or MSNBC. I don't think they have gotten the memo yet. We will see what the papers print. I love the comments section on this blog.

  55. msnabc has made its bed and now must stay on track with the FEW viewers they have left. I tried again to watch Overbite but thought for a minute I had stomach flu BUT it was just OVERBITE. Turned him off NO need once again for the PEPTO!

  56. I've also been watching what CNN and MSNBC have been saying. And Anon is right. No matter what the truth is, it seems that they will make their own truth. That is dangerous in and of itself. I just pray that Obama doesn't get in on the mix.


Please keep it clean and nice. Thank you for taking the time to post you thought. It means a lot to me that you do this.